Lisa’s Substack

Lisa’s Substack

Up and Out versus Down and In

Leaders versus Rainmakers

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Lisa Jaster
Oct 13, 2025
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My place of employment is currently expanding. As we interview new employees, especially at the higher end of the pay scale, I’ve noticed that not everyone understands that a solid “up and out” hire is not the same thing as “down and in” talent. Up and out refers to people who manage the image and external relationships of the company. This requires a certain skill set. People who are great at public interfaces and work on the business have significantly different skills than those who are “down and in” — the individuals who keep the wheels turning inside the organization, making sure clients are served, deadlines are met, and the revenue engine keeps humming. Both are essential. But confusing one for the other can lead to expensive hiring mistakes and internal frustration.

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